tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post6998234945385606909..comments2023-10-11T04:09:53.564-07:00Comments on materfamilias writes: The Joys and Challenges (and Potential Shame) of Imperfection . . . materfamiliashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-27040478576021363632016-09-14T15:51:17.584-07:002016-09-14T15:51:17.584-07:00That was a wonderful memoir -- and what a great ex...That was a wonderful memoir -- and what a great experience to have read it while living a version of your own.<br />Thanks for sharing your own experience with "imperfection" -- I've not yet been to Switzerland and hope to get there someday -- I so admire the flexibility with languages there.materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-24297177314572437662016-09-14T14:05:35.209-07:002016-09-14T14:05:35.209-07:00I lived and worked for 10 years in the Swiss-Germa...I lived and worked for 10 years in the Swiss-German area around Zurich. I could make myself understood in slightly 'gebrochenem Deutsch'. I never did learn to write grammatically.<br /><br />Lost in Translation by Eva Hoffman - I read in Zurich, communicating in German with a colleague from French-speaking Geneva. Both of us LIVING that lost in translation. Diana Studerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12286066768376135880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-16939503383425223252016-09-08T07:55:05.012-07:002016-09-08T07:55:05.012-07:00Thank you so much for sharing this, Smithposts. I ...Thank you so much for sharing this, Smithposts. I do begin to think ahead to legacy, not that I need anyone to save sketches that I'll leave behind, but that I want to communicate as much of myself as I can, in some ways at least, to future generations. Or somehow, it's more that I want to fulfil some small responsibility of moving bits of the past forward. Or something. . . . tracing the journey, as you suggest. . . materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-33051366386010809182016-09-08T07:53:20.186-07:002016-09-08T07:53:20.186-07:00Once again, I must applaud your determination to t...Once again, I must applaud your determination to take on Turkish. I've been moving between French and Italian and Spanish DuoLingo and even in that comfort zone of Latin-based languages, I struggle. . . <br />Do take a sketchbook with you -- where is this autumn holiday?<br />Oh, what a dream, to meet up in Croatia. Or Venice, indeed (I haven't been to either. . . yet!)materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-17331163095873796802016-09-08T07:35:25.775-07:002016-09-08T07:35:25.775-07:00This is it! I've only lived for relatively bri...This is it! I've only lived for relatively brief periods in a second language, but it's as if my IQ drops, in others' perception of me and hence their responses to me, by at least 50 points. . . .so frustrating and oh my, such a damnably efficient way to set off a downward spiral. . . <br />Thanks for the inspiration and guidance re the sketching -- I hope one day we might find the opportunity to sketch together again.materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-68678006398695890752016-09-08T07:33:16.918-07:002016-09-08T07:33:16.918-07:00Sarah, the first review I read about this was forw...Sarah, the first review I read about this was forwarded to me by a friend who loves Lahiri's work and who speaks a few languages, lives mostly in "another" language, and I'm so pleased it brought me to her -- I think you'd glean so much food for thought from it -- you're already tuned in, obviously, in your recognition of the complexities involved in English's colonial weight.<br />Thanks for the encouragement/feedback re the sketching. And I love your analogy to language. . . I will keep it in mind through my French lesson this morning ;-)materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-52931136412606213732016-09-08T04:29:19.721-07:002016-09-08T04:29:19.721-07:00Frances, when my father passed away in April, we f...Frances, when my father passed away in April, we found portfolio after portfolio filled with sketches and drawings he had made over the years, many we had never seen. A number of the sketches were wonderful, many not so much. We were delighted to uncover these treasures. As the saying goes, it's not the destination but the journey. Each sketch is a little piece of that journey...Smithposts...https://www.blogger.com/profile/14629545466885402603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-19005726533565357892016-09-07T06:47:59.887-07:002016-09-07T06:47:59.887-07:00I never heard of Lahiri, but I find both her proje...I never heard of Lahiri, but I find both her project and her ideas on imperfection fascinating, so I will have to find that book somewhere. (Might be a bit difficult here.)<br />Speaking of imperfection, I finally signed up for a Turkish course again. I wonder if I'll ever be able to write a coherent text in that language...<br />Your two artichoke portraits (different as they are) are absolutely stunning! And very inspiring. I wonder if I should take a sketchbook on my little autumn holiday trip...<br />And I really think one day we should all meet up in Croatia (or Venice?).Eleonorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-11943968109462589052016-09-06T19:43:56.480-07:002016-09-06T19:43:56.480-07:00I don't know the book but from what I know of ...I don't know the book but from what I know of working/living with people with second languages for decades is how frustrating it must be to be treated on the basis of one's language delivery, the thinking that an unripe delivery equates with an unripe mind. Oh-ho-ho, woe betide the person who underestimates on that basis. I see it at all social/professional levels. Not sure how this connects with your post... Heh. <br /><br />As for your artmaking, hurrah, I am so glad you heard me and my good intentions - I do catch a vibe from your drawing. I enjoyed our day out. And I am glad you're cutting yourself some slack. It's the process and the seeing of things that are most rewarding here. I'd eat those veggies!Melaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06218727738029858422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-40267760065755116862016-09-06T17:36:35.827-07:002016-09-06T17:36:35.827-07:00I haven't read Lahiri's book but I did rea...I haven't read Lahiri's book but I did read an article or two about it (maybe one by her talking about the process, and another review -- but a distinctly non-churlish one). I found her thoughts & words on the topic very moving and I'd like to read the book (in fact I harbor fantasies of reading it in some language that is not my first, how perfect would that be?). I think the fact that English is not her first language, and in fact to her ethnically/culturally is the language of a colonial power, adds an extra dimension to her project -- makes her determination to just up and choose a third language that carries none of that baggage all the more resonant.<br /><br />I like your sketches very much and yes, the looser sketches are more evocative to my eye. I like how, in the second watercolor of the artichoke, you've brought in the colors of the other vegetables but in a much less literal way. It seems to me that watercolor is a medium that really benefits from -- even demands -- a bit of loosey-goosey-ness. <br /><br />And, to bring it back to language, it strikes me that speaking (vs. writing) is basically the watercolor of language. So let's all dive in!<br /><br />(Ha ha, do as I say, not as I do -- I'm a relentless perfectionist myself.)Sarahhttp://becoming-gezellig.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-87890960258392262522016-09-06T13:18:49.802-07:002016-09-06T13:18:49.802-07:00Oh! I admire and envy your conviction that sketchi...Oh! I admire and envy your conviction that sketching's "all about the enjoyment of getting lost in the process" -- I never, ever thought that until several years ago. Somehow the "otherwise why bother?" for me had always been preceded by If you're artistic/skilled/able to produce an aesthetically pleasing rendition of your subject go ahead, (Otherwise, why bother?)<br />With languages, it's easier for me to accept imperfection in the name of communication. I'd hazard a guess that this has to do with the obvious practical use of language, however imperfect, whereas, as an astute commenter remarked here a while back, sketching or painting were perhaps a marker of class, of leisured indulgence. Not my family's bailiwick, really...materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-57188055675033900772016-09-06T13:14:20.579-07:002016-09-06T13:14:20.579-07:00I know you'd enjoy the book, Mardel, and it...I know you'd enjoy the book, Mardel, and it's quite slim, so can be read quickly.<br />Thanks for the encouragement re the sketches. I feel compelled to continue, oddly. . . and I do think that the dimension, as you say, of memory and discovery are what I hope for here...materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-39852356499300779792016-09-06T13:13:00.075-07:002016-09-06T13:13:00.075-07:00Yes, it's the subjunctive that I generally hes...Yes, it's the subjunctive that I generally hesitate over -- my husband, by contrast, eschews it altogether and goes for simplicity. Because he's less hesitant, he gets understood much more quickly, despite having a much poorer accent than I do. His "faked" confidence (determination is what it really is -- he sets a destination clearly and achieves it by sentence's end) pulls his listeners along. I'm trying to learn from (rather than resent, which I ashamedly admit is the temptation) his approach. . . materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-86021620356097641162016-09-06T13:10:05.294-07:002016-09-06T13:10:05.294-07:00You remember that drawing? That means a lot -- tha...You remember that drawing? That means a lot -- thank you! It's true that every so often, I look at a page and realise I'm really pleased with what I've put there.<br />I think you'd find In Other Words worth reading -- and you can read either Goldstein's translation into English OR read Lahiri's Italian original. Both are included in the e-text, at least, although it took me a while to catch on to the hotlinks. I'm not sure how the paper version is set up, but I'd imagine there might be Italian at front or back with English in the opposite half.materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-64718745652327580552016-09-06T13:06:18.542-07:002016-09-06T13:06:18.542-07:00I'm trying to learn this, Ceci, and encouragin...I'm trying to learn this, Ceci, and encouraging voices like yours help very much. Not sure why I'm so drawn (ha, pun unintended) toward making marks on paper right now, but I'm going to trust that there's a reason and continue to puff gently on that little flame. Boo to the inner critic when she gets too bossy and mean!materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-80763442668645111692016-09-06T13:04:51.489-07:002016-09-06T13:04:51.489-07:00It's sometimes astonishing how powerful the gu...It's sometimes astonishing how powerful the gut response is over the more rational part of us. We can recite our intellectual recognition that we needn't be perfect, and that can make perfect sense to us, but in those "not waving but" moments, what hits first is the gutpunch of comparison. We're working at it though, right? And yes, Dottoressa's advice rules!And wouldn't that be a joyful jaunt to Croatia?materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-49763535658152456982016-09-06T13:02:01.054-07:002016-09-06T13:02:01.054-07:00Yes, I think she would be your girl! (love your co...Yes, I think she would be your girl! (love your command of English idioms, very contemporary ones)<br />I love your story of moving into another language. We talked a bit about something like this with our French tutor last lesson. She notes that I am hard on myself, pushing to use subjunctive, generally using a fairly elevated diction, and that I might try to relax into error more often. Perhaps my sketches and watercolours will lead the way for me! ;-) It's certainly true that when chatting with/reading speakers/writers of English as a Foreign Language, I'm not at all bothered by errors, but rather focused on exchanging ideas, curious about their view of the world, delighted that they've made the effort to speak my language. Now I need to assume that people will receive my French (and then Italian and Spanish) the same way...<br />materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-75329449354131036682016-09-06T12:56:46.240-07:002016-09-06T12:56:46.240-07:00Yes, it's the referencing and comparing I need...Yes, it's the referencing and comparing I need to lose. Working on it. And thank you!materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-26948218088772658272016-09-06T10:52:37.918-07:002016-09-06T10:52:37.918-07:00Sketching's surely all about the enjoyment of ...Sketching's surely all about the enjoyment of getting lost in the process , not about exactly reproducing your subject . Otherwise why bother ?<br />And I'm afraid I tend to feel that way about speaking other languages , too . Conversation's all about sharing a particular moment with someone ... in Holland they say that you sometimes have to make your meaning clear with hands and feet .SmitoniusAndSonatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11210817141287881808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-83730636412894043772016-09-06T09:34:11.075-07:002016-09-06T09:34:11.075-07:00I read Lahiri's The Namesake a long time ago a...I read Lahiri's The Namesake a long time ago and have always meant to read more. There are probably other books on my stacks (real and virtual). A good cerebral memoir sounds like a treat though. I love your sketches, especially as part of a journal, it adds a dimension of memory and discovery, and that is the point, is it not? Mardelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850551308931710502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-70321379792818285112016-09-06T07:43:35.680-07:002016-09-06T07:43:35.680-07:00Thank you Madame!
It is important to get over one&...Thank you Madame!<br />It is important to get over one's fear- because when it is not your native language,you are not suppose to be perfect,aren't you? You just have to start somewhere and be better than yourself,not Francoise Sagan :-)<br />D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-16454189045630147232016-09-06T07:36:36.516-07:002016-09-06T07:36:36.516-07:00Thank you Georgia! Just think how much more you kn...Thank you Georgia! Just think how much more you know than before and go-remember Nelson Mandela: It is not important how many times you fall but how many times you rise :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-46212602237963928252016-09-06T07:30:30.485-07:002016-09-06T07:30:30.485-07:00That would be really great!
And- Thank you :-)
D.That would be really great!<br />And- Thank you :-)<br />D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-34534401312865620242016-09-06T06:54:53.089-07:002016-09-06T06:54:53.089-07:00I have not read Lahiri either. The overpowering ur...I have not read Lahiri either. The overpowering urge to "get it right" is certainly a mixed blessing. In art, there is no "right". Dottoressa is wise. I still hesitate, even in French, sometimes because I am afraid of a verb error (subjunctive usually). Who really cares? That inner critic trying to be "perfect" is often just nasty. Keep sketching.Madame Là-bashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703782237948233124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4904021173466473381.post-65632603620025208392016-09-06T06:53:07.307-07:002016-09-06T06:53:07.307-07:00Remember you are the woman who drew (I think it wa...Remember you are the woman who drew (I think it was pen and ink) those blackberries. Maybe last summer? <br /><br />I am going to try to reserve that book at the library. Language interests me. The isolation when you can't communicate well is so profound. Dottoressa, you are such a wonderful example. I will think of you when the verb tenses threaten to stop me! I am starting French classes next week after Duo-lingoing for several months.Georgiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10305981957174091874noreply@blogger.com